Lostcast 82


  • Patron

    • I don’t think V8 is a interpreter, nor a VM…

    • You guys are great at slogans…

    • Hmm… I thought Node and Chromium shared the same V8 context in NW. Yeah, that would be harder and less safe to do, I guess.

    • It’s so interesting how much adoption and support Node got, even in kind of early stages.

    • Ah… guys. Your NW problem seems like an easy fix to me. Ok, not actually solving the problem, but, why don’t you just enable the UI in NW and use it to test?

    • Shark Surfing, by Lost Decade Games, coming summer 2023!

    • So, @richtaur mentioned on Twitter that you’ve created a new Asana project for your new game. Tell us more! (i.e put your feet in your mouths a little more)

    • Hey guys, the next time you take a topic from the topic suggestions thread, let us know before! I would have linked you to the Extra Credits Producer episode, if I knew.

    • Your producer talk really made me remember how much I suck at and hate dealing with people.

    • I… don’t know guys. Todo lists kind of suck.
      I mean:

    • Todo list apps like Asana are waaaay to overpowered for what your todo list should be (if you’re going to have one).

    • For the things you’ll most probably forget, like bugs and item stats, todo list apps are way underpowered, when compared to a good spreadsheet or just a WYSIWYG editor.

    • You just shouldn’t have a todo list.

    So, let’s say you have your beautiful bug spreadsheet, with comments, sharing, Google Hangouts editing and more space than you’ll ever be able to occupy. What would you use Asana for? Having a “fix bugs with priority one” task? Unless you get hit in the head and forget everything that happened in the last decade, you know you have to fix bugs. The spreadsheet already has the todo list embedded in it, the difference is that it’s way more powerful.

    Your brain has enough space for the todo list that matters. If it really matters, you’ll remember it. And for storing the data related to those tasks you probably won’t remember, there is spreadsheets which are way more appropriate than todo lists apps, being able to display way more data and just being way more powerful in general.

    Having your bug list, your design documents AND your item stats spreadsheets all in the same place, shared in the cloud sounds invaluable to me.

    • Google Docs = networked notepad made me LOL.

    • I wanna see that Death pwned video!


  • LDG

    @Josue said:

    • I don’t think V8 is a interpreter, nor a VM…

    I’ll try to remember to call it an “engine” from now on, to avoid the pedantry. However:

    “Google engineer Lars Bak explains the key engineering decisions behind V8, the JavaScript virtual machine used in Google Chrome.” source

    • Hmm… I thought Node and Chromium shared the same V8 context in NW. Yeah, that would be harder and less safe to do, I guess.

    I believe they share the same context, but aren’t necessarily the same version of V8. I’m a bit out of my league with that discussion, though.

    • Ah… guys. Your NW problem seems like an easy fix to me. Ok, not actually solving the problem, but, why don’t you just enable the UI in NW and use it to test?

    The UI on/off is not the (admittedly small) hurdle. It’s more about setting up the source files in a different way. It’s easy to do, but less ideal than testing in Chrome. In any event, doing that doesn’t really solve the issue that we want to stay up to date with Chromium updates/fixes (in general).

    • So, @richtaur mentioned on Twitter that you’ve created a new Asana project for your new game. Tell us more! (i.e put your feet in your mouths a little more)

    We bought the domain, too! We’ll have more to say in a month or so, maybe. Right now it’s still in the “hey, this sounds cool” stage.

    Jeff Atwood makes some decent points, but ultimately, I disagree. Notice that he doesn’t mention anything about working with other people. Notice that he’s talking about simple lists, not managing a large software project. Do you really think Atwood and his team didn’t use any kind of bug/task tracking software when creating Stack Overflow? Especially with Joel Spolsky as a business partner (who founded Fog Creek, which makes Trello).

    So, let’s say you have your beautiful bug spreadsheet, with comments, sharing, Google Hangouts editing and more space than you’ll ever be able to occupy. What would you use Asana for? Having a “fix bugs with priority one” task? Unless you get hit in the head and forget everything that happened in the last decade, you know you have to fix bugs. The spreadsheet already has the todo list embedded in it, the difference is that it’s way more powerful.

    A spreadsheet is great for many kinds of data, but project/task management is not one of them. Consider for a moment that many smart people use task tracking software. If a spreadsheet was actually more powerful, these people would be more inclined to use the best tool for the job. Spreadsheets are generic databases, which is why they seem appropriate for managing all kinds of data. Under the hood, products like Asana and Trello do store data in a similar manner, but give you much better tools/UI for organizing, filtering, and consuming that data.


  • Patron

    @geoffb said:

    However:
    “Google engineer Lars Bak explains the key engineering decisions behind V8, the JavaScript virtual machine used in Google Chrome.” source

    Yeah, I really don’t know.

    To my understanding, V8 has an interpreter, VM and a bytecode to native code compiler, not is an interpreter/VM.

    We’ll have more to say in a month or so, maybe. Right now it’s still in the “hey, this sounds cool” stage.

    I don’t care! I wanna be hyped too! Right NAO!

    Notice that he doesn’t mention anything about working with other people.

    Sure, but do you really need anything more than Google Docs to keep everyone in the same page? Really?

    Do you really think Atwood and his team didn’t use any kind of bug/task tracking software when creating Stack Overflow?

    I’m pretty sure they had some bug tracking database, but I doubt they had a todo list, at least of the kind you seem to use.

    I mean, having HUNDREDS of tasks for your game project? Having a task for EVERY SINGLE BUG?

    I really can’t see how that can be beneficial.

    In a game project, you only really ever have three tasks, and I’m pretty sure you’ll never forget them:

    • Implement features.
    • Create content.
    • Fix bugs

    Everything else is data.

    A spreadsheet is great for many kinds of data, but project/task management is not one of them. Spreadsheets are generic databases, which is why they seem appropriate for managing all kinds of data. Under the hood, products like Asana and Trello do store data in a similar manner, but give you much better tools/UI for organizing, filtering, and consuming that data.

    I think you might be missing my point. My point isn’t that you should use a spreadsheet in place of Asana or whatever, my point is that you shouldn’t have the need for a tool like Asana.

    I’m not suggesting that you turn Google Docs into your todo list, I’m suggesting that you abandon the idea of todo lists. As I said before, you know what to do, you just need the data for doing it.

    Spreadsheets are, by their very nature, great at displaying lots of data at the same time. And tho I can’t imagine a situation where more filtering than simple color tagging would be needed, Google Docs has additional filtering tools.

    Oh, and most spreadsheet applications are scriptable, so, just that by itself makes it more powerful.

    Consider for a moment that many smart people use task tracking software. If a spreadsheet was actually more powerful, these people would be more inclined to use the best tool for the job.

    They don’t use it because it’s the most powerful tool.

    I mean, if that was the case, everyone would be coding games in ASM, as it’s the most powerful tool, technically.


  • Patron

    @josue said

    I mean, having HUNDREDS of tasks for your game project? Having a task for EVERY SINGLE BUG?

    I really can’t see how that can be beneficial.

    This:

    “Studies have shown that your brain gets overwhelmed when it sees a list of 7 or 8 options; it wants to shut down. For this reason, you need to work from different lists. Separate them into different categories and don’t have more then 7 or 8 tasks on each one.”

    So, you might want to have more than must, should and could.


  • Penguin

    @Josue said:

    “Studies have shown that your brain gets overwhelmed when it sees a list of 7 or 8 options; it wants to shut down. For this reason, you need to work from different lists. Separate them into different categories and don’t have more then 7 or 8 tasks on each one.”

    Don’t work in scientific research. Or as a cook/chef.


  • LDG

    I appreciate that you have these strong opinions, but you’re coming at these conversations from a fairly uninformed perspective. This conversation very similar to the ones we had around JavaScript module systems and web architecture. You don’t seem to appreciate the complexity of working at scale. Things that work for you, as a solo developer, on small projects do not scale with additional team members, tens (or hundreds!) of thousands of lines code, and vastly more complicated systems.

    You mention the power of ASM. Perhaps the crux of the issue here is that we have radically different definitions of “powerful”. To me, ASM is not a powerful tool for creating applications. There’s a very good reason that most applications these days are created using more abstracted languages than ASM. It’s because they are more powerful in the sense that you can create scalable, robust programs/applications more quickly. How many professional (not hobbyist) game studios do you know of that create games in ASM? I’d venture to guess it’s an extremely low number, perhaps even zero. Why? Because trying to manage a complicated software project across many team members and locations in ASM would be an absolute nightmare. It’s the same reason why teams of programmers use source control instead of emailing source code back and forth or even keeping it on a shared drive: It does not scale.

    You also seem to have the wrong impression of Asana. Asana is just as full featured a bug tracking system as many others. I simply remarked that I like how it can be superficially used similarly to a TODO list for ease of entry. Creating a ticket in Bugzilla is just a more involved process, compared to Asana.

    For the purposes of this conversation let’s replace Asana with Bugzilla. Do you think any professional software development shop would keep track of bugs within Google Docs? If I ever interviewed at such a place, I would run screaming. Why? Because I have worked on software projects at scale, and I can tell you in no uncertain terms that it would be a complete clusterfuck. Now, replace bugs with features, what’s the difference? Not much. A bug represents a defect in your program while a feature represents new work to be done. Aside from that they share much of the same data, such as milestones, assignee, categorization, etc. Spreadsheets and shared documents are simply not as efficient or scalable as software specifically designed to help you manage complicated projects.

    Can you use spreadsheets/docs to manage projects? Sure. Can you create games in ASM? Absolutely. Are there better ways? You 'betcha.


  • Tiger Hat


  • Patron

    @geoffb said:

    I appreciate that you have these strong opinions, but you’re coming at these conversations from a fairly uninformed perspective.

    Haha, that’s totally true.

    I can very easily be a uninformed troll, so, excuse me for that.

    Things that work for you, as a solo developer, on small projects do not scale with additional team members, tens (or hundreds!) of thousands of lines code, and vastly more complicated systems.

    Yes, I totally agree.

    I just think that projects which are, at max, three orders of magnitude more complex than those I worked on don’t exactly qualify as something terribly complex.

    You mention the power of ASM. Perhaps the crux of the issue here is that we have radically different definitions of “powerful”. To me, ASM is not a powerful tool for creating applications. There’s a very good reason that most applications these days are created using more abstracted languages than ASM. It’s because they are more powerful in the sense that you can create scalable, robust programs/applications more quickly.

    Yeah, when I said powerful I didn’t mean something that is easy to use and scalable by itself, but something that is at the same time very plain and very flexible. Something that can be shaped to meet the requirements of a large array of projects, with some work.

    How many professional (not hobbyist) game studios do you know of that create games in ASM? I’d venture to guess it’s an extremely low number, perhaps even zero. Why? Because trying to manage a complicated software project across many team members and locations in ASM would be an absolute nightmare. It’s the same reason why teams of programmers use source control instead of emailing source code back and forth or even keeping it on a shared drive: It does not scale.

    I agree with everything you said here, if we are talking about a team with dozens or hundreds of developers.

    But if we are talking about only a handful of developers, I think almost anything can work, with good comunication. People who developed game in the 80’s didn’t have Asana or Dropbox and probably were managing version control on a white board. Even then, it worked out.

    Of course, they weren’t working remotely as you do, what makes effective communication way harder.

    For the purposes of this conversation let’s replace Asana with Bugzilla. Do you think any professional software development shop would keep track of bugs within Google Docs? If I ever interviewed at such a place, I would run screaming. Why? Because I have worked on software projects at scale, and I can tell you in no uncertain terms that it would be a complete clusterfuck.

    Sure, sure. Google Docs probably isn’t the best choice for a team of hundreds of members, but for a handful of devs working together, I can’t see why a whiteboard would be less effective.

    Now, replace bugs with features, what’s the difference? Not much. A bug represents a defect in your program while a feature represents new work to be done. Aside from that they share much of the same data, such as milestones, assignee, categorization, etc.

    There’s a HUGE difference between features and bugs! The difference is that it’s way easier to forget to fix a bug than to implement a feature.

    I mean, the only kind of feature I can imagine one forgetting to implement is stuff like you implemented in the quality of life update.

    Spreadsheets and shared documents are simply not as efficient or scalable as software specifically designed to help you manage complicated projects.

    But they are flexible enough to be tuned into a software specifically designed to help you with your very specific needs.


  • Patron

    @Affordable_Desk said:

    I have to say @geoffb I’m disappointed

    You forgot ragagut.com


  • LDG

    Dentist Simulator: The Whitening


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