Lostcasat episode 64...


  • Patron

    This is going to be a pretty rambly post, so, you have been warned.
    Let’s go:

    • You talk a lot about “micro” and “macro” games and about AAA games being a collection of smaller games, but I think we can (and should) go even further and analyze each game mechanic as a very simple game by itself.

    • Your RPG talk made me start to think why I don’t like RPGs much. I think now I know why.
      So, I don’t like “action” RPGs (I mean, Zelda) much because of the puzzles. I played what were the for me the first 20 minutes of ALTTP, and these felt completely AWESOME! The intro of that game is just genious! Walking on the rain, breaking into the castle, fighting enemies, rescuing Zelda, talking to the wizard, being on an epic quest! And then puzzles…
      I mean, the puzzles aren’t that difficult (I think), but they just completely broke the hype for me. I wanna fight monsters and bosses, not solve these freaking dungeon puzzles.
      And the reason why I don’t like turn based RPGs (I mean, FF) is because of the battles. For me, the overworld is WAY more interesting than the battles. I wanna explore, talk to people, get items, not get into a 5 minute long battle every time I walk a couple o’ inches!
      I think what I look for in a RPG like FF is a game where I can just seat and the the story unfold before my eyes, you know… I don’t wanna have to think, or make strategies. I just want to enjoy the story.

    • I think some people don’t enjoy TAS simply because they look at them with the wrong eyes.
      I mean, TAS aren’t interesting because of the skill the player has at playing the game, but at the knowledge the player has about the game, how it works and in the skill needed to discover these things.
      Also, I love to see “perfectly coded games” break apart.
      But I cannot accept people that think some forms of entertainment are suicidally boring, because I don’t think any form of entertainment is boring.
      I mean, I don’t like some forms of entertainment much, but I can understand why they are fun and I can imagine myself having fun doing that.

    • Matt was talking about how expressive you can be playing games, and that made me think in Minecraft and in the game I’m currently developing (well, at least I’m trying).
      I think game in the future will allow a lot more expressiveness, because that’s what differenciate game from other forms of media, you know, interaction! Also, I think AAA games nowadays generally laughably fail at delivering meaningful interactions and at allowing players to express themselves.

    • Matt, your voice acting is so funny! You should make a cartoon of you slapping your past selves, as suggested by @Ken.

    • Matt was talking about how he wanted to meet Castlevania’s designers. I personally would prefer to meet Kinuyo Yamashita or one of the programmers.

    • You were talking about your will to make a sidescrolling platformer. I think you should do a Metroidvania (or a Castleroid if you prefer) and I have four reasons to you to do that:

      1. I love Metroidvanias.
      2. You love Metroidvanias.
      3. Everyone loves Metroidvanias.
      4. I haven’t seem many Metroidvanias being released recently, both on indie and on AAA, what means a Metroidvania would (theorically) have less market competition than a roguelike. Seriously, after Spelunky, people are making way too much roguelikes.
    • Let’s promote #Onedentistgameperyear!

    • (programming calculators tangent) Yeah, TI calculators have a huge homebrew community.
      Heck, there are even ports of Cave Story and VVVVVV for it!

    • Speaking of mobile indie games, have you played Squids? It’s probably the best IOS game I’ve ever played (I don’t play IOS games that much, as you can see).

    • Your game dev metaphors (the climbing a mountain thing) are genious!

    • At first, I thought The Witness was going to be a PS4 exclusive, but it will be released on PC and IOS, so, I guess I no longer have a reason to buy a PS4.
      Now, I’m seriously interested in Below and it’s a Xone exclusive, if memory serves.

    • The thing with cable tv isn’t the content itself, but the way it’s presented. You know those times when you open Netflix and none of the suggestions seem to be interesting? I think cable TV is great at conducting the audience into content they would never watch otherwise. In the game world, I think press does that job.

    • I know having a console isn’t “mathematically” a clever choice, but there’s something about consoles, something I can’t explain. You know, the “having a console” feel?
      I think having a UI designed for the living room is part of that, and I hope that Steam boxes can achieve at least part of that feeling, but it won’t be the same thing.

    • Matt was talking about how the Ouya is low-end, but I think it’s powerful enough. I mean, it’s probably faster than the Wii, and we have absolutely amazing games, with beautiful looking graphics on the Wii.
      But Android was a bad choice in this aspect, on my opinion. Wii games probably are very low-level programmed, so they can take the maximum out of the hardware. That simply isn’t possible using Unity on the Ouya or Java. You would probably have to use NDK, but even then you would still have to communicate with Java to use some of the APIs, and the NDK isn’t very popular.

    • Geoff forgot to mention the whole “demos are bad” thing we discussed previously when talking about how demos generally make him not buy a game.

    Overall, I’ll give this episode a 9/10.
    I feel like there’s a very hard to hit sweet spot in lostcast between staying on focus and making funny tangents.
    Generally, I feel like the most informative episodes aren’t funny enough and that the funny episodes aren’t informative enough.
    I also think that, if you made longer episodes, there would be more time to be both informative and make funny tangents.
    Seriously, I need more lostcast. Like, three hour long episodes, 7 times per week.
    You said in some lostcast that you make Google Hangouts almost ever morning. Why don’t you make some of those into lostcasts?
    Or maybe you could just record them and put them on Youtube, without editing.
    Or maybe you could make public Hangouts so we could discuss stuff with you (maybe use the abandoned LDG community hangout?)!
    Also, I think you seriously should make more video lostcasts.


  • Patron

    Hey @richtaur @geoffb @ken @t2norway @David @cheersphilip!
    Post something will ya?


  • LDG

    You talk a lot about “micro” and “macro” games and about AAA games being a collection of smaller games, but I think we can (and should) go even further and analyze each game mechanic as a very simple game by itself.

    That’s true! Mega Man could be seen as a collection of games about moving left, moving right, jumping, shooting, predicting, memorizing…

    So, I don’t like “action” RPGs (I mean, Zelda) much because of the puzzles.

    I hear you, the puzzles really started to annoy me in Ocarina of Time. Combat is more awesome.

    And the reason why I don’t like turn based RPGs (I mean, FF) is because of the battles.

    That’s totally what RPGs are all about so yea if you don’t dig that they probably won’t float your boat. In an RPG like Dragon Quest you spend the vast majority of your time strategizin’ in battles. Fun for some! (me included, yay numbers)

    I mean, TAS aren’t interesting because of the skill the player has at playing the game, but at the knowledge the player has about the game, how it works and in the skill needed to discover these things.

    Totally! I think there’s value in any demonstration of a game. For example:

    1. Manual speed run (awesome demo of content and skill!)
    2. TAS (awesome demo of mastery over a game!)
    3. Playthrough (awesome display of content!)

    I can imagine watching all three types from a game that I love.

    I don’t think any form of entertainment is boring.

    Personally I don’t like poetry ;)

    I think game in the future will allow a lot more expressiveness, because that’s what differenciate game from other forms of media, you know, interaction! Also, I think AAA games nowadays generally laughably fail at delivering meaningful interactions and at allowing players to express themselves.

    Agreed! Games are interactive, so give players more ways to interact!

    Matt, your voice acting is so funny!

    hehe thanks!

    Matt was talking about how he wanted to meet Castlevania’s designers. I personally would prefer to meet Kinuyo Yamashita or one of the programmers.

    That would be amazing! Sometimes there are “classic postmortems” at GDC, maybe we’ll get lucky one year…

    You were talking about your will to make a sidescrolling platformer. I think you should do a Metroidvania (or a Castleroid if you prefer) and I have four reasons to you to do that

    haha definitely agreed, sounds sooo fun

    I haven’t seem many Metroidvanias being released recently, both on indie and on AAA, what means a Metroidvania would (theorically) have less market competition than a roguelike. Seriously, after Spelunky, people are making way too much roguelikes.

    I have seen a lot, like La Mulana, Chasm, Catacomb Kids… I don’t think it’s a saturated genre yet but I do think that indie devs in general are hitting metroidvanias pretty hard.

    (programming calculators tangent) Yeah, TI calculators have a huge homebrew community.

    You might dig my friend Carolyn’s article she wrote a few years back: http://www.gamesradar.com/the-best-ti-83-rpgs-ever/

    Speaking of mobile indie games, have you played Squids? It’s probably the best IOS game I’ve ever played (I don’t play IOS games that much, as you can see).

    I have heard a lot about it and I think it was made by a developer I respect for some reason ;) Definitely on my radar.

    Your game dev metaphors (the climbing a mountain thing) are genious!

    I can’t see anything through the mist!!

    At first, I thought The Witness was going to be a PS4 exclusive, but it will be released on PC and IOS, so, I guess I no longer have a reason to buy a PS4.

    Braid was sooo good. I can’t wait to play The Witness!

    The thing with cable tv isn’t the content itself, but the way it’s presented. You know those times when you open Netflix and none of the suggestions seem to be interesting?

    Agreed there’s a lot to be said about flipping channels etc.

    I know having a console isn’t “mathematically” a clever choice, but there’s something about consoles, something I can’t explain. You know, the “having a console” feel?

    You can play this game or you can’t. You’re on this team or you’re not, yeah it’s kind of a club feeling.

    Geoff forgot to mention the whole “demos are bad” thing we discussed previously when talking about how demos generally make him not buy a game.

    I still have no idea about demos. I feel like they’re either mandatory or detrimental, no clue…

    Overall, I’ll give this episode a 9/10.

    \o/

    I feel like there’s a very hard to hit sweet spot in lostcast between staying on focus and making funny tangents.

    It’s a tricky balance!

    Also, I think you seriously should make more video lostcasts.

    I think the feedback I got from the video lostcasts is like “Why would I not just listen to the mp3?” but yeah I think I agree, should have more videos. We’re (slowly!) moving towards producing more scheduled content. Currently swamped with this mobile contract game, GDC next week, and Steam integration. Later on in the month hopefully we’ll be 100% AWL and Lostcast and videos and and…!


  • Patron

    @richtaur said:

    You talk a lot about “micro” and “macro” games and about AAA games being a collection of smaller games, but I think we can (and should) go even further and analyze each game mechanic as a very simple game by itself.

    That’s true! Mega Man could be seen as a collection of games about moving left, moving right, jumping, shooting, predicting, memorizing…

    Jumpandshootman!

    So, I don’t like “action” RPGs (I mean, Zelda) much because of the puzzles.

    I hear you, the puzzles really started to annoy me in Ocarina of Time. Combat is more awesome.

    Oh, when I say “puzzles” I mean the lame block moving puzzles and such.
    The other puzzles are awesome!
    I mean, the raccoon man puzzle in Link’s Awakening. That’s simply genius (and took me a while to figure out (a WHILE!)).

    And the reason why I don’t like turn based RPGs (I mean, FF) is because of the battles.

    That’s totally what RPGs are all about so yea if you don’t dig that they probably won’t float your boat. In an RPG like Dragon Quest you spend the vast majority of your time strategizin’ in battles. Fun for some! (me included, yay numbers)

    Well, at least that’s what turn-based RPGs are about.
    IDK, I just don’t like turn-based games much. I’d rather play a board game in that case.
    For this reason, I got REALLY interested in To the Moon, as it’s a combatless RPG, which is all focused on the story.
    Also, for some reason, I really dig sad stories.

    I mean, TAS aren’t interesting because of the skill the player has at playing the game, but at the knowledge the player has about the game, how it works and in the skill needed to discover these things.

    Totally! I think there’s value in any demonstration of a game. For example:

    1. Manual speed run (awesome demo of content and skill!)
    2. TAS (awesome demo of mastery over a game!)
    3. Playthrough (awesome display of content!)

    I can imagine watching all three types from a game that I love.

    I don’t like playthroughs as much as speedruns.
    You know, if I’m going to watch a video of someone playing a game, why don’t I just play the game?

    I don’t think any form of entertainment is boring.

    Personally I don’t like poetry ;)

    I don’t like poetry much either, but I can kinda understand why some people really dig it.
    I don’t attend to poetry clubs or read famous poems, but I like to make little poems once in a while.

    I think game in the future will allow a lot more expressiveness, because that’s what differenciate game from other forms of media, you know, interaction! Also, I think AAA games nowadays generally laughably fail at delivering meaningful interactions and at allowing players to express themselves.

    Agreed! Games are interactive, so give players more ways to interact!

    It makes me sad that some much money in the game industry is spent in games with rather trivial interactions.
    I think we haven’t even scratched the surface of what we can do in regards to that.

    Matt was talking about how he wanted to meet Castlevania’s designers. I personally would prefer to meet Kinuyo Yamashita or one of the programmers.

    That would be amazing! Sometimes there are “classic postmortems” at GDC, maybe we’ll get lucky one year…

    Postmortems are another kind of video I absolutely adore to watch!
    Pitfall, Doom and Gauntlet are some of my favorite GDC postmortems.
    It makes me so angry that you have to be 18 to go to GDC >:(

    I haven’t seem many Metroidvanias being released recently, both on indie and on AAA, what means a Metroidvania would (theorically) have less market competition than a roguelike. Seriously, after Spelunky, people are making way too much roguelikes.

    I have seen a lot, like La Mulana, Chasm, Catacomb Kids… I don’t think it’s a saturated genre yet but I do think that indie devs in general are hitting metroidvanias pretty hard.

    Chasm seems absolutely wonderful!
    I read the devlog at Tigsource before they Kickstarted it.
    Catacomb Kids is procedurally generated, so, it doesn’t fit on what I mean by “Metroidvania”.
    With “Metroidvania”, I mean the “RPG” Metroidvanias, with huge hand-built maps and epic extensive plots.
    I mean, Cave Story (which, as you may or may not know, is my favorite game OF ALL TIME).
    I just feel that Metroidvania is a genre that hasn’t been explored nearly enough.

    (programming calculators tangent) Yeah, TI calculators have a huge homebrew community.

    You might dig my friend Carolyn’s article she wrote a few years back: http://www.gamesradar.com/the-best-ti-83-rpgs-ever/

    Oh, that sounds interesting!
    I’ll take a look into that!

    Your game dev metaphors (the climbing a mountain thing) are genious!

    I can’t see anything through the mist!!

    Haha

    At first, I thought The Witness was going to be a PS4 exclusive, but it will be released on PC and IOS, so, I guess I no longer have a reason to buy a PS4.

    Braid was sooo good. I can’t wait to play The Witness!

    Specially because Jonathan says it’s going to be way deeper than Braid.

    I know having a console isn’t “mathematically” a clever choice, but there’s something about consoles, something I can’t explain. You know, the “having a console” feel?

    You can play this game or you can’t. You’re on this team or you’re not, yeah it’s kind of a club feeling.

    Yeah, it feels like a club.
    I think the console wars all come down to the need that we have to belong to a group, you know.
    I don’t want to be neutral. Being against something, even irrationally feels way better.
    This kinda reminds me of Grey (which is an awesome game, BTW).

    Geoff forgot to mention the whole “demos are bad” thing we discussed previously when talking about how demos generally make him not buy a game.

    I still have no idea about demos. I feel like they’re either mandatory or detrimental, no clue…

    Well, they’re not necessarily bad, specially for indies, but they aren’t much beneficial either.

    I feel like there’s a very hard to hit sweet spot in lostcast between staying on focus and making funny tangents.

    It’s a tricky balance!

    And it’s probably pretty hard to notice when you’re getting too serious or too rambly while recording.

    Also, I think you seriously should make more video lostcasts.

    I think the feedback I got from the video lostcasts is like “Why would I not just listen to the mp3?” but yeah I think I agree, should have more videos.

    Well, because it’s way more fun!
    I wanna see your faces! (don’t get me wrong)
    I’d rather one million times watch a video Lostcast than listen to it when at home, but video isn’t much of use when I’m on the go.

    We’re (slowly!) moving towards producing more scheduled content.

    It’s not the schedule that I’m worried about, it’s the quantity of content that I want to increase.

    Currently swamped with this mobile contract game, GDC next week, and Steam integration.

    And trading cards!

    and and…!

    Don’t do that to me you soulless person!


  • LDG

    you have to be 18 to go to GDC >:(

    Oh I didn’t now that, super lame!

    Catacomb Kids is procedurally generated, so, it doesn’t fit on what I mean by “Metroidvania”.

    We’ll probably never make one then, as we’re reeeeeeally into PGC :) Doing stuff by hand is time-consuming for indies so we want to automate as much creation as possible.

    Interesting stuff!


  • Patron

    @richtaur said:

    you have to be 18 to go to GDC >:(

    Oh I didn’t now that, super lame!

    Nope

    I guess this is a no…
    Well, I probably wouldn’t have money to go to the USA before being 18 anyways…

    Catacomb Kids is procedurally generated, so, it doesn’t fit on what I mean by “Metroidvania”.

    We’ll probably never make one then, as we’re reeeeeeally into PGC :) Doing stuff by hand is time-consuming for indies so we want to automate as much creation as possible.

    Creating algorithms that can make maps which feel organic and well thought out as a hand-made maps certainly would take way more time than creating the maps.
    Possibly forever…
    Of course, after your death, people would have a possibly unlimited number of maps to play, but…
    Also, I can’t see any way procedurally generated maps would work well with a very story-driven game. Well, I mean, you could make it work but it won’t feel the same.
    The thing with PGC is that it never feels as good as hand-created content, and I think it never will (unless we can put human brains inside computers).
    So, instead of trying to make computers recreate what we humans can do now, why don’t we try to expand the boundaries of what human minds can design?

    Yeah, I know the answer… Money!


  • LDG

    The thing with PGC is that it never feels as good as hand-created content, and I think it never will

    I’m up to the challenge!


  • Patron

    @richtaur said:

    The thing with PGC is that it never feels as good as hand-created content, and I think it never will

    I’m up to the challenge!

    Well, good luck then.
    I’m sorry for being pessimist, but I think you’ll fail.
    It’s totally possible to create algorithms which can create “decent levels”, but designing things isn’t just a programming matter, it’s a way deeper problem.
    Computers just can’t design things. They can engineer, but designing requires something else, something like…
    A human brain, you know?
    Watson is, as far as I know, the closest you can get to human intelligence.
    Still, it mixed up browser cookies with “real” cookies, and, suddenly, Watson’s computer knowledge base was inflated with recipes.
    Of course, using tiles makes it easier for a computer to “fake” level design, but humans can do way more than that, right?


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